CitizenRE II - No Cost Solar Energy or Hype?
[Update 1/3/08: CitizenRE has two competitors...]
[Update 2/21/07: Media Articles]
- Renewable Energy Access has since published this article “CitizenRE: A House of Cards” and this podcast “Special Report: A Look at CitizenRE“
- Wired Magazine published this piece titled, “Selling Homeowners a Solar Dream“
- C-Net published this article “Breaking the mold in solar power“
- I am writing more formal three-part series on GreenOptions.com - Part 1, Part 2, Part 3)
[Update 2/8/07: update about half-way down]
Here is an email I wrote to someone on CitizenRE yesterday that probably says some of the same things as before, but organized differently:
There is a lot of internet website, blog, and marketing materials flying around about CitizenRE, a multi-level marketing company out of Delaware. Unfortunately, most of it is either coming straight from the company or being reiterated by people interested in and theorizing about the concept, but not necessarily having any additional information beyond speculation. Any critical analysis is generally overwhelmed by the hype (and exclamation points!!!!). Why are they marketing it long before they have any product to offer? I have read that they will be making more announcements in the coming weeks, probably about their new manufacturing plant.
The premise is a service oriented, vertically integrated solar installation company on the residential scale – consumers want green electricity and economic value, not to actually own a solar system. CitizenRE intends to build a large solar manufacturing plant and develop a network of salespeople and installers across the country. Rather than buying the panels themselves, consumers will sign a rental contract with the company for little or no money down at a rate equal to or less than their current electricity price in markets where they pay 7 cents/kWh or more. I question their ability to operate in more than a few states with higher incentives and rates but they claim anywhere with net metering and at least that rate.
Example:
Consumer signs a 25 year contract at 9 cents/kWh with CitizenRE, with a waived down-payment because of the long-term contract. Their monthly “rental fee” is equal to the solar system’s production at the contract rate - maybe $30/month for a 3 kW system (actual amount depends on your production amount). If the consumer is paying 10 cents/kWh retail to their utility, they pocket 1 cents/kWh difference as immediate savings ($3+/month) but if it’s equal to their retail cost, they only save on future utility cost increases as a hedge. If rates go up 2 cents/kWh the next year, they save $6+/month. If they install a 3 kW system and it offsets 50% of their annual consumption, they’ve hedged that much against future increases, but not all of their consumption. This is not green pricing because they’re not paying more and they are offsetting their onsite consumption. Consumers can move once and have their system reinstalled elsewhere for free (theoretically) or pass along the contract to the next owner. CitizenRE takes the tax credits, the rebates, potentially low costs from vertical integration, and probably the renewable energy credits (if legal under net metering, which isn’t the case in every state).
This is not actually a new concept. SunEdison, MMA Renewable Ventures, and Solar Power Partners offer this in limited markets (NJ, CA, CO, i.e. incentives) on big commercial systems (500 kW or larger). CitizenRE is jumping two steps by offering it to residential consumers and offering it in all states with net metering, again theoretically.
Everything is theoretical because even though they have reportedly signed up thousands of consumers, their target date to start installations is fall 2007. But, to my knowledge, they haven’t built the 500 MW manufacturing plant, UL listed the panels, CEC certified the panels, trained installers, etc. They are talking about spending $650 million dollars as if that’s not a big deal to get this going – somebody like the Google Foundation has to be behind this to make it work (you heard it here first), but that doesn’t seem to be the case given the poor execution. They haven’t announced where the plant is going to be located yet either and no one in the solar industry has heard of them or this plant. Where are they getting the silicon which is really expensive and scarce right now? Do they have inverter deals or are they building their own? Just this manufacturing issue alone would seem to delay them at least another 2 years.
There are also obviously issues with installing all of these systems too – certified installers, priority in the queue, variable profitability across markets with different electric rates, systems malfunctioning, quality control, inspection, interconnection, delays, etc.
The September install time is extremely naive (or I am severely underestimating something) and consumers will become dissatisfied as things get delayed. If they have a secret manufacturing plant or are partnering with one currently under construction, that changes some things but fall is still too ambitious. If the federal tax credit dies in 2007, their model is dead.
Having said all this about CitizenRE in particular, which I am severely skeptical of, I think this business model is coming over the next 5-10 years. Consumers will be able to effectively reduce their consumption by 20-50% with little or no risk on their part, but they aren’t pocketing all that as savings (remember, the monthly rental fee negates most of the savings, and instead you gain a hedge against future cost increases). What companies do it and when is an open question…If CitizenRE made all these announcements and were saying 2009 or 2010, I wouldn’t be this critical necessarily. But they are putting their marketing horse before the product cart, which is suspicious.
2/8/07 UPDATE: CitizenRE internal information leaked
Apparently some CitizenRE internal information has been leaked by an EcoPreneur (click here to download):
“Citizenre Warnings & Red Flags: Immediate Action Required to Prevent a Complete Loss of Confidence and Severe Negative PR”
1. Overall: “Powur of Citizenre Network Completely Out of Control” (page 2)
- Exponential Demand Growth with Production Supply Constraints
- Training inadequate and tests compromised
- Looming PR Disaster
- Deceptive income claims…with no prospect for any significant return for >95% of ecopreneurs
- Risk of Regulatory Investigations and Sanctions
- Excessive unethical behavior driven by lack of training, skewed incentives, and lack of controls
- Excessive Secrecy & Lack of Verification
2. February Sales Won’t Be Installed Until January 2008 (page 10)
3. Security Deposit (page 16):
- $1,452 (that’s over $14 million for 10,000 systems)
- 13.5% qualify for no money down
4. Big Issues ( page 18, 19, and 61):
- >90% of sales force pitching free installations and cheap solar with expectation of Sept 2007 installations
- Current path is unsustainable and risks severe alienation of customers and the loss of >80% of associates
- It is unethical to encourage associates to make marketing investments in regions where they cannot expect installations in 2007 or the 1st half of 2008?
- If there really is $650 Million Invested, Citizenre’s Executives and Officers Are Accountable to Both the Board of Directors and the Investors
5. Sales Force - EcoPreneurs (page 20 and 51)
- Sales force training completely inadequate and missing
- Get 30,000 associates who have no hope of ever being successful
- Complete lack of renewable energy and solar product knowledge
- Horde of inadequately trained associates polluting internet with Citizenre spam and creating a potential PR nightmare
- Please explain to us why rapidly expanding the size of the network is in the interest of anyone but the handful of
individuals at the top of the pyramid? - The median associate sells 0 per month, and the average sales per associate is below 1 per month.
6. Who’s making money? (page 35, 43, 44, and 48)
- Possibly greater than 80% of funds go to those at the top
- Very clever marketing but how does operating a pyramid scheme where only the 20 to 50 individuals at the top of the pyramid obtain the vast majority of the cashflow make you any different from the other MLMs?
- Very few Ecopreneurs will ever achieve residual income on thousands of homes, especially given the 2007 and 2008 production constraints. So why are you pushing deceptive view of the opportunity?
- The compensation plan does tell lot about the company – a pyramid is a pyramid…
7. Marketing (page 43, 55, and 57)
- Hype the opportunity but zero discussion of the risks and real returns for anyone that sign up
- If >30% of customers are part of the Powur network, the Federal Trade Commission would sanction Citizenre for being a Pyramid Scheme
- Citizenre has a major snowballing problem with trust and its image
February 1, 2007 at 11:07 am
Yeah, I agree. Too much hype and not enough facts makes reasonable people (and especially Americans, I think) suspicious. The BS detector is going nuts right now.
February 1, 2007 at 12:40 pm
I found your evaluation of the Citizenre business plan to be thoughtul. Thanks.
The whole setup seems so shady that despite the pretty website,it is hard to take this seriously. They list the executives of the company, but offer no bios or background. Nearly everything about the company is from blogs and press releases. Their pyramid-scheme approach to sales is the true “tell” in all of this. Their pyramid is readily downloadable off their website. THAT part, is all planned out quite nicely.
February 1, 2007 at 11:32 pm
I am very glad that I came across your site and read your thoughts on this company. I too did some research on them and concluded that they are making business claims that are not within reason. I looked for their company in a business database and nothing showed up, so I don’t think that they are even a corporation. I decided they must be a bunch of college boys with a web-server in their dorm room and are posting whatever ideas they learned from their business 101 class.
February 2, 2007 at 3:35 pm
Energy Industry Analyst (seeks to remain anonymous):
“Based on a couple of other phone calls I made today, I get the same feeling - they seem to be gaining traction (and they’ve certainly put in a ton of work to their web site), but there are no direct phone lines or email links to any of their “leadership” personnel, and their concept seems a bit too good to be true (at least currently). One person I talked to today noted they have “deep concerns” about the company. I’ve also not seen and venture capital-type announcements surrounding CitizenRE, which makes me think they’re still working hard at rounding up start-up money (or they’re being extremely secretive about what they’ve got).
I was able to track down history for at least two of their leaders - Daniel TwoEagles was formerly with Beacon Power and Dr. Robert Wills was formerly with Solar Design Associates. But neither are currently with these organizations, so that’s as far as I got.”
A different industry insider says:
“Smoke and mirrors. Like an old Western movie set - plywood fronts and nothing behind. I’m from Missouri - show me something they’ve done.”
So am I a solar hater? Is the industry biased against this new up and comer that will take over the market? I think you have to take some actual $ before you can be perceived as a real threat. In the meantime, consumer ill will from false promises seems to be where it’s heading.
February 2, 2007 at 9:10 pm
solarkismet brings up a good point–CitizenRE isn’t taking any money from customers until an assessment has been done on their house for solar panels. This assessment won’t be done until the manufacturing plant is up and running. Also, they aren’t taking any money from their sales associates. There is no start-up fee, yet they are paying up-front bonuses. These factors alone make me think that there is something to this comany. How can it be a scam if they aren’t profitting off of the scam? As to funding, maybe it is being funded by movie stars like Ed Norton or other environmentalists. Six million isn’t such a big deal to them. As to secrecy, who would want to let such a brilliant idea (and the technicalities behind it) go public before they have the opportunity to see it through? I’m interested in seeing what happens.
February 4, 2007 at 11:07 pm
I appreciate your posting of information and comments on this company. It seems like a great concept (maybe too good at the moment) and I expect utilities to offer similar programs in the future. It will be interesting to watch and I hope solarkismet continues to track the progress.
February 6, 2007 at 11:38 am
[EDITOR'S NOTE: This is from another posting on CitizenRE that I'm cross posting here.]
[COMMENT]
I have one major question for all of the doubters and critics of CitizenRe. Why do you want this to fail? That’s the only reason that I can think of for all of your negativity. In all the hype and hoopla about CitizenRe you failed to mention that it costs nothing to sign up and you and I and anyone else that signs up loses nothing if it fails.
Finally, I don’t see any alternative being offered except wait for the ungoverned to pass legislation that is going to force industry to become involved (via Al Gore… HA, HA, HA). Come to think of it, even Al Gore wasn’t a skeptic like you when someone mentioned the internet.
At the present rate of growth within the green energy industry we will all be long extinct before more that 5% of our energy is converted to renewable resources.
Is that what your aiming for?
[MY RESPONSE]
Here’s the answer: It’s called critical analysis of facts and reality.
There’s no vendetta - don’t question my passion for renewable energy or the environment. Do you use less than 100 kWh/month? Did you use less than 100 gallons of gas last year? Did you reduce your heating use 30% in a Minnesota winter climate? Do you track your carbon emissions?
The CitizenRE marketing machine exceeds anything that can possibly be tangibly delivered. If CitizenRE had a manufacturing plant built, had solar panels that were UL certified, had a cadre of certified solar installers, had a open dialogue with the existing solar industry, and started in a select few states with the best economics, slowly building market confidence and a track-record, I would be their biggest fan.
But they don’t have a manufacturing plant, no one in the solar industry has heard of them, they haven’t installed one system, and the marketing hype (!!) is excessive (it frankly reminds me of the Iraq War marketing wash).
And if it doesn’t deliver, it disillusions thousands of consumers.
Do you realize how many thousands of people still say that solar energy (of any kind) doesn’t work because they had a bad experience in the 1970s and 1980s with solar hot water scams?
I didn’t think so because 90% of the CitizenRE army signed up on Craig’s List in the last 6 months.
And before you write saying that you’re all this and more, I believe you. But for every one of you, there are 20 that aren’t.
February 6, 2007 at 7:09 pm
It’s settled, then. Either complete horsesh*t or brilliant paradigm-altering audacity.
February 6, 2007 at 7:59 pm
Exactly!
February 6, 2007 at 8:56 pm
[Editor's Note: more exclamation points]
This is the real deal!! You want to know how you will know? They aren’t asking for ANYTHING!! sign up here [WEBSITE DELETED] and I will walk you through the whole plan. There is ZERO commitment.
February 7, 2007 at 11:34 am
Wait and see I talked to one of there sales people last night and he seemed like a sincere and intelligent guy but even he used phrases like “we’ll see if this all turns out to be real” and the like….defiantly makes you wonder. Also their website says they have 650 million in financing but from who? and that they are going to announce another major financial partner in a couple weeks. So I will wait and see and hope. This could be a corner stone in changing the nations energy infrastructure even in changing our very society…..
February 7, 2007 at 12:12 pm
I seriously wish for this to be true. However, like many of you I am taking a wait-and-see attitude because I have seen way too many promises on new technologies or approaches that never actually delivered. Thanks for your thoughts, and please don’t stop your investigation into this– it is a much appreciated service to the rest of us that are interested but don’t have the time or bandwidth to follow up on this.
February 7, 2007 at 2:48 pm
I like to believe I’m an optimist. That said, I’ll hope for paradigm-alterning audacity, but keep my eyes keenly peeled for horsesh*t. Appreciate the sharing of info and opinions here. I’ve been looking for data on this company and its concept, and this is the first place I’ve found a decent discussion at all.
February 8, 2007 at 4:07 pm
I just thought I’d add my two cents here. Like many here, my “gut” feeling is that it’s too good to be true. I really hope I’m wrong. I did receive some corroboration from a respectable (I hope) source. I e-mailed Ed Begley Jr., and he vouched for the company. He said he did much research into it before making his video. He also said that he knew Dr. Robert Wills personally, and he was a long-established name in solar power. The other thing that gives me some hope, is that I can’t see what anyone would gain from this elaborate scam, if that’s what it is. They don’t ask for any delicate information (like Social Security #), nor do they ask for any up front money. But why the He!! are they being so secretive? And whatever happened to the big press conference in January?
February 9, 2007 at 1:58 pm
[Editor's Note: Mr. Veach apparently can't count. He previously posted a comment on my blog here under "Robert" and had 28 years of experience. Now he has 35 years of experience. That's 7 more years or 25% more experience since Monday. And I believe the consultant report indicates that only 13% of customers pay no money down, so plenty of people have plenty to lose. (Both comments came from the same internet IP address.)]
If this is a scam, it is the most elaborate one that has ever been executed in the history of the United Staes. It is also the most non profittable one ever, since the only entity that has spent any money is CitizenRE who has probably spent over $500,000 on their website and legal fees.I am an electrical engineer with 35 years experience. I have two succcessful buisinesses. What people have to realize is sometimes companies have to take a jump way forward to get ahead of the competition. CitizenRe has aligned a sales force way in advance of a product? I am in the middle of this company as an associate, and I feel that they will be working with a large solar manufacturer ( Sanyo ?) until they come online with their own plant. I have been in constant communication with Rob Styler and he seems extremely competent and committed to this. Of course Nothing is told to me or any assocaite (very wise I might ad) and this is just my gut feeling. If you are sceptical, check out all the info about this concept at:
WEBSITE DELETED
There is nothing wrong with being skeptical ,but look at the data available and make an intelligent choice. The worst thing that can happen to you as a customer is you get in a waiting queue for a free solar system down the road. The wost thing that can happen to me as an associate is that I have spent a lot of time for no money, but a good addition to my knowledge base.
WEBSITE DELETED
February 9, 2007 at 8:39 pm
I understand your concerns. It is not that we are trying to be secretive about our plant or any of our information. We are finalizing negotiations and it would not be prudent to release information until everything is complete.
We will be releasing some of the bios of our senior staff this week. We have been very clear from the beginning that the plant will not be completed for many months.
No customer ever pays a deposit until one of our franchises goes out to their house and designs their personal system. Once the customer signs of on the design and we ship the panels to their house, then the customer pays a security deposit, usually $500 but it can be more for larger units.
That “report” you posted was not a consultant and it is highly misleading. Some good points were raised and we will have an official corporate response. I know how passionate you all are about renewable energy. We feel that “business as usual” was not good enough and we know some people have concerns.
We decided on a network marketing model so we could train a dedicated sales force. It has been proven repeatedly that this method is very effective in introducing a new concept to the marketplace that requires personal explanation.
One mistake that we made was because their is no cost to sign up and our initial test was fairly basic, the bar was pretty low and some people have not be representing us in the most responsible manner. We are creating a tougher test that will weed out the people who are not committed to our mission, but please understand how serious we are about what we are building.
Many posts seem to imply that we must be a scam because we use network marketing and that is a “pyramid scam.” Network marketing is a $120 Billion a year, very legitimate industry. Have there been scams in network marketing…absolutely. If we are scam, we would be the stupidest scam in history because we collect no money and will pay out $5,000,000 in commissions to our sales force before we make a dime?
If we did not fully intend to follow through with our business model, why would we ever make that sort of financial investment?
I have read some interesting posts…we are a scam to collect people’s email addresses? There are a lot easier ways to get emails than creating the infrastracture we have.
We are going to collect 100,000 deposits of $500 or more and then run off to a tropical island. No deposits are taken until the units are ready to install and the customer signs off on the design and the panels are ready to be shipped.
We will fundamentally change the way power is produced in America. We rent the unit, the customer produces their own renewable energy from the sun, and the customer enjoys the savings ever month.
We are receiving concern from solar installers who are having their customers cancel because they like our solution more. If we were not fully planning to complete our vision, then it would be highly irresponsible of us to promote our plan because it could hurt the entire solar industry if people put off buying solar and we never delivered.
We will deliver and our press releases over the next month with give people more confidence in our plan. Please don’t judge too quickly. Most of us have the same goals. I know our model is different. Give us a chance to prove it to you.
Rob Styler
President,
Powur of Citizenre
February 9, 2007 at 8:47 pm
This a response I posted on our internal forums to the document you posted above. One of the things we do to encourage open communication is we have an open forum where anyone can post anything. If you really want to have your questions answered, you can sign up with us for free and look through the plethora of information.
This was my initial response to the slide show. We will have an official company response to all of the points soon:
Re: real or scam?
2007-02-09 10:03:01 - MR. ROB STYLER
First off, that was definitely not a consultant who wrote that. Second, we have nothing to hide. We will prepare a full written response.
I have repeatedly said that people will attack our model because we are changing the solar industry. This statement is from one of our own who has some concerns. I have no problem with concerns, but in reading this, it seems like this person does not believe in the fundamental tenets of our business model.
That is like being an executive for Microsoft and making a 63 slide powerpoint about why the company should focus on hardware instead of software.
We are doing something that has never been done before. Most people are scared of change and the unknown and this brings up their own fears. We are also getting push back from the solar installers and I will spell out their concerns.
Solar installers are having installations cancelled because their customers hear about our solution. I can imagine this would be frustrating for the installer. Think about it. How can they compete with our offer?
Most of the people in the solar industry are extremely dedicated and passionate about renewable energy. They have never seen our model. Some are skeptical and some are rejoicing because they know what a huge solution we will be.
It is obvious from reading this document that the author does not believe in our MLM model. That is our business plan. If someone is not comfortable with that, then they should invest their efforts elsewhere.
I believe in this industry. For all its faults, it can be a beautiful model of cooperation. It is obvious from some of the modeling that the author has a very limited understanding of the industry. I will touch on two points that directly question me.
First, in 2006 the FTC was exploring a law that would have required people to wait 60 days before they bought a product from an MLM company after joining. The FTC asked for comments from people in the industry. Every organization from the Direct Selling Association (DSA) to every major lawyer and advocacy group in the industry was against the law.
I have worked with the FTC for 10 years to help clean up MLM. I was lead witness against a company that was fined $50 million for consumer fraud. I was on the board of directors for the MLM International Association. I will put my track record up against anyone for doing the right thing irregardless of personal sacrifice.
Second, there are several questions about 10 minute flash presentation. In my opinion, there are plenty of qualifiers and if you watch the whole thing, the message and the tone are clear. I say, “Don’t quit your day job, there is not enough money in the system yet.” “If you are considering working with us just to make money, please do something else. We have a big vision and we want our core people, the early visionaries, to resonate with our cause.
Then I say, “As the president of the Powur, I feel that these early months, before the manufacturing plant comes online, are a blessing. We can develop and train the people who are with us for the mission, not just the money. And when the systems are installed and the money starts to flow full force, our visionaries will be properly positioned to profit.”
The author had a concern about me using the example of Allen Priest selling 157 systems in one month. I find that it is important to give people a goal to stretch towards. I did not say or imply that everyone was doing that. I said “one.” It was an example. If you watch that flash, the tone and intention is clear and obvious.
My experience is that whatever you focus on expands. This person obviously chose to spend an impressive amount of time focusing on what could go wrong. I imagine that we could call get together and even come up with a few more negative possibilities.
He also questions my decision to not terminate one of our RSD’s who was giving out the answers to the test. I believe you have to look at intent and history. This particular RSD had spent more than anyone on the conference calls training and answering questions. He believed that it was better to work with the person on the phone and walk them through the test. He felt they would get better retention. He had created a list of the answers so his leaders could provide that service…and it got out of hand where some people where just giving the answers and not supplying the support or training.
Personally I would not want to be part of an organization that does not give people a chance to learn and grow. I don’t know anyone who is perfect. This RSD has given an apology to the other RSD’s and will make an apology to the entire field. Leadership is owning your mistakes, accepting responsibility, and growing from the consequences.
The “conclusion” of this author is that we should drop the MLM model and hire some really talented people…ie him.
What I love about MLM is that ANYONE can do it. Can that cause some problems…of course. Will we have some people who are not responsible citizens of our community…obviously. And we will take actions to protect our business, our future and our brand. But this elitist attitude that the “average” person cannot be trusted to carry our banner is not in the spirit of our company or our country.
With all its flaws, democracy is the best political model in the world. With all of its flaws, MLM is the most democratic business model in the world. It does not matter your education, your gender, your race or your lineage. The only thing that matters is your desire, your drive, your vision and your results.
So if anyone does not like network marketing, please don’t let us waste anymore of your time.
That is our business model. You knew that when you joined and it is not going to change. The fact that David Gregg has committed $5,000,000 to pay the field before the company makes a dime tells me all that I need to know about his integrity.
Please understand that any other network marketing company would be charging $495 to sign up to sell our revolutionary system. Our actions speak for themselves. We have open forums, open conference calls and have been as transparent as possible.
I know there are some concerns about the timing of information. Some of the deals we are structuring are complicated and would not be served by sharing the information at this time. It will all make sense soon.
I have repeatedly stated that each person has to make their own choices of what is comfortable for them. If you are not comfortable yet, just wait until you are. Simple.
Thanks,
Rob
February 10, 2007 at 1:03 am
Definitely a scam, and apparently unraveling fast. A friend who’s been in the solar biz for almost 30 years just talked to CEO David Gregg, this very day, and my friend said he sounded nervous and shady. Daniel Two Eagles is worried and planning to back out, my friend says. Dr. Robert Wills has started one failed inverter company after another, I’m told.
As to the ‘but they’re making no money!’ argument, well, it is strange. Here’s a theory: Maybe they are, in fact, making money. Maybe some duped customers and downstream pyramidees are begging to pay their $500, or even more, to move up the line, for solar installations and/or the hoped-for commissions.
February 10, 2007 at 12:01 pm
Lots of good comments. I studied the “Terms of Agreement” for the Sales Asoociates. One of the terms was to NOT use unsoliceted email contacts (spamming) to find prospects. In all but one of the cases of contact this week, I was sent an email. (Posting on Craig’s List also constitutes spamming, as far as I’m concerned.) I also noted differences in the terms put forth by the various associates. I googled the principals and found solarkismet from a Daniel TwoEagles link. He seems to be a legitimate player wiith extensive experience in the sustainable energy storage power & conversion systems, most recently with Beacon Power. Fabrice Murgia shows up as a graphic design student from the Cuyamaca University and also of the same name a French actor in the movie “Odette Toulemonde”. Burak Seydiologu (East Indian?) has written an engineering business model computer program available for $599 which was rated at (I think) 3 1/2 * (stars) by the seven people that reviewed it. I found solarkismet before I googled Gregg or Wills. Having been periferally involved in the solar industry, and knowing many installers who have not been contacted, most had not even heard of it. I know that there are not enough installers in Minnesota to take this forward. The certifying process is rigorous and required time is 2 years experience to be fully certified. SolarKismet saved me hours of research and enabled me to forward their blog spot to all I know. I, too, hope this is for real, but I lived thru the pure pyramids of the 80’s and have also learned recently that when people claim to be proponants of the greener lifestyle, many have turned out to be self deluded opportunists or extremely controlling with very limited tolerance for their fellow human beings; perfectionists unable to love. In short, what people say doesn’t matter, it’s what they do that counts. Haven’t we learned from the current administration that “Saying it doesn’t make it so!”?
February 10, 2007 at 5:06 pm
Shep…please be clear that we accept NO deposits until the system is ready to be installed. There is no way to “move up the list.” We are building a long-term business model and investing millions of dollars to do it.
David Gregg is anything but nervous and shady. Please don’t project your fears on us. We are confident in what we are building and I was on a call with Daniel Two Eagles yesterday and he is as firmly committed as he has always been.
Please deal with the facts.
Thanks,
Rob Styler
President, Powur of Citizenre
February 10, 2007 at 8:57 pm
Rob, good to have you checking in. I just gave people’s honest opinions, including my own. We’ll see if you can prove these opinions wrong. I doubt it, but will be happy to be wrong. And when will you update your website to give the honest facts, like delivery no longer starting in September? Such a show of good faith would be a start to getting people to believe again. Looks to me like it’s all crumbling before our eyes. Whether it’s an outright scam or just a naive, unrealistic, grandiose plan, well, I suppose the honorable thing to do is give you the benefit of the doubt till proved otherwise. So I’ll retract my statement that it’s ‘definitely’ a scam.
February 10, 2007 at 11:39 pm
Shep:
I appreciate your being open-minded about the “definitely.” The main thing that is holding our press-release back is we have come to realization that we need much more stringent training before allowing people to represent our brand and our mission. We have been as surprised as many of you by the behavior of some of our reps. We have to take responsibility that we did not provide the proper training and guidance, so we adjust and move forward.
We know what the response will be with the press release and want to make sure we are prepared.
Thanks for staying open-minded. Our time-lines will make more sense when the press release happens. We are also preparing a formal written response to some of the concerns.
Thanks,
Rob
February 11, 2007 at 12:19 am
I am so confident that this is a scam that I’d bet my life on it. Rob Styler happens to come from a company that was shut down by the federal government for some kind of MLM pyramid scheme.
[Editor's Note: deleted derogatory comment and edited next sentence in context]
[The environmental] movement that needs to succeed if we are to stop global warming. You ought to be a shamed of yourself. This bogus company of yours is going to do major damage the green energy market.
[Editor's Note: deleted three "shame on you's" because I can't stand that phrase]
February 11, 2007 at 4:10 am
Good call Shep, I like the upgrade to positivity at the end of your statement. Way to cover your butt, And just in the nick of time, You’ll be thanking yourself in a bit when you realize it’s ‘definetely’ a solution. And a darn good one. And you decided not to throw to many stones.
” I’m just sayin”
February 11, 2007 at 12:42 pm
[Editor's Note: Mr Veach took exception to my pointing out the discrepancy in the number of years of his electrical engineering experience.]
Your totally right solar kismet editor, I can’t count, CitizenRe is a scam. My master degree in computer science is fake, my masters in electrical engineering is is a false document, I have never had two successful engineering related buisinesses, I never did win second place in the Illinois state science fair at age 12, I do not have multiiple videos on you tube showing my failed animatronic buisiness, I will never get my CitizenRe solar panels. Lets all keep up the positive attitute of you fine website!!
February 12, 2007 at 5:24 pm
Rob, will you address George Glicks’ charge? Are you the same Rob Styler of Equinox fame? Whether yes or no, could you provide us with a resume? Sure hope you respond; if not, your silence will be defeaning. And defining.
And Jonny - hoo boy, if you take my comments as ‘positive’ because I said Citizenré may not be a scam but just naive and unrealistic grandiosity, well, that sure ain’t much of an endorsement of the company!
robert veach - thou doest protest too much.
All in all, this is looking shabby indeed. But I’ll hold judgment temporarily till at least seeing Rob’s resume or lack thereof.
February 12, 2007 at 6:50 pm
OK, Rob, I see on your online sales pitch that you do tell about your Equinox background (without ever mentioning the word “Equinox” I miight add. So that much is settled. And I spent a lot more time at the many various sites connected with Citizenré. And one conclusion is clear to me: Whether scam or naive grandiosity, it’s a bad deal. Once you get beyond the nice glossy surface, this thing is so thin and airy it’s embarrassing.
February 15, 2007 at 1:18 am
Shep, I guess if you can’t even recognize a good buiseness model, how could I expect you to get a little sarcasm. I wouldn’t worry though, everyone knows that your comments are less than positive.
February 17, 2007 at 9:35 am
As the saying goes, if it sounds too good to be true……..!
It will be interesting and educational to hear about and see the picture, when/if the dust clears!
February 17, 2007 at 2:49 pm
Citizenre is a scam. The scam is being perpetrated on potential investors. Citizenre does not have the 650 million as they claim. They are working on bilking investors currently and will pull the plug soon. They have faoled to meet two important deadlines and will not disclose who is financing them.
Citizenre has to buy raw material just as BP Solar, Schott, Toshiba, and Sharp do. Because of worldwide demand, pv grade silicon is costly. Ask yourself this: Do you think a startup like Citizenre can negotiate for raw materials like the above big boys? Citiznere claims that vetical integration is the reaosn why their pv systems will be half the cost of the competitions. This is a false. Furthermore, with recent changes in inverter design, there is no way they can pull this off. Citizenre will set back the solar pv market by years.
David Gregg routinely makes fundamental technical errors on the CC’s. Citizenre’s “sales force” does not know the difference between pv and pvc.
There are so many red flags about Citiznere. Too many.
But they will have a following, right ot the bitter end. Too bad David Gregg, Rob Styler, and a few others will be in the Cayman Islands.
February 17, 2007 at 7:27 pm
People who are behind it will move forward, people who are half hearted will sit on the sidelines and wait, people who are fearful will try to bring everyone else down with them.
[Editor's Note: This is a nice quote. But I don't see research of anyone's claims to be "fear," but rather good sense. Anyone who fears analysis is probably hiding something.]
February 18, 2007 at 7:19 pm
[Editor's Note: Time is what other solar businesses don't have. Customers are likely being siphoned away with promises, which if unfulfilled, puts them without solar and existing companies in bankruptcy. And while CitizenRE may not be accepting money from customers or ecopreneurs, they are selling environmental and economic hope, but not much else. I also wonder if the promise of the solar system for ecopreneurs or customers is payment is lieu of actual money. In the end, do customers know what they are getting? Low-risk, low-return...you still have to pay CitizenRE the monthly fee. The savings and future hedge value likely add up to less than $100/yr in the first five years.]
My bio is posted right on our website.
For your convenience, here it is:
Mr. Styler brings a diverse and proven leadership to Citizenre and Powur. An Academic All-American and team captain of both track and cross country at UCSB, Rob went on to serve two years with the Peace Corps in Guatemala, where he was honored with “The Beyond War Award” by the United Nations. Returning to the U.S., Rob began his education in network marketing. Young and idealistic, he joined a small company in San Diego that later became “the fastest growing privately held company in America” for 1996, as ranked by INC Magazine. Equinox opened 400 offices and did $200 million in business in its fourth year and Rob developed into one of their top national trainers.
When Rob uncovered a lack of company ethics, he left and wrote a book about his experience (Spellbound, My Journey through a tangled web of Success). The book helped inspire a federal investigation, where Rob served as the lead witness for the government. Equinox was shut down and fined $50 million for consumer fraud. Rob went on to build several large sales organizations, serve at the highest levels of corporate management and was honored to serve on the board of the Multilevel Marketing International Association. He was also a bilingual consultant for Sheffield Resource Network and helped to structure several international companies. Rob was attracted to Citizenre because of the environmental vision for clean energy.
Mr. Styler is head of our direct sales efforts. It is his responsibility to inform and attract the residential consumer to our REnU program. As part of this effort, Rob is now being charged with ensuring that our sales force is well educated in the areas of PV Technology, Renewable Energy Policy, and the Electric Industry. This is instrumental to our Company and to the development of the Renewable Industry: as a young Company, this is a key concern of ours and we want to ensure that we develop a nationwide network of informed sales associates that help the industry as a whole. It is our Number 1 priority and will take center stage on our direct sales agenda.
[Editor's Note: This appears to be the end of the bio.]
We made a mistake of setting the “bar too low” for entry into our company. Because it is free to join, we attracted some people who were not responsible citizens of our community. We will remain free, but we are finalizing our new initial testing process that will solve this concern. By requiring everyone who represents our solution to pass an indepth test, we will weed out the people who are just looking to make a quick dollar. We are serious about our mission of bringing renewable energy to the masses and we are taking every step to protect our future and our brand.
Let’s be clear that I do not hide anything. I did not use the name Equinox in our sales presentation because it has nothing to do with Citizenre and I felt it was classier not to use the name. I do talk about it because that is where I learned the good, the bad and the ugly of network marketing.
I walked away from a significant passive income at a young age to do the right thing and I stood up against a $200 million dollar company. They sued me for $2 million because I spoke the truth. There was a lot of personal sacrifice, but the truth will usually prevail.
The problem with most network companies is they require people to buy product every month in order to “qualify” for their bonuses. With Equinox this was magified because that they required $5,000 in orders every month in order to “qualify” for your bonuses. Most people do not have the skills to achieve that on a regular basis so some ended up “buying their check.” In other words, ordering product and stacking it up in their garage so they would qualify for their bonuses.
Citizenre has no cost to join and there are no monthly requirements. You don’t even have to be a customer of Citizenre in order to earn commissions. You are paid for one result: helping people to upgrade their home to solar. Simple.
Though network marketing is an extremely successful industry, I agree that there are problems. Most people get involved because they are promised wealth without effort. This is a pipe dream. Most of the people invovled with Citizenre are more interested in the mission than the money.
Aristotle: “Where your talents and the needs of the world intersect, there lies your vocation”
That quote is the reason I am so excited about Citizenre. I live completely off the grid and my home is powered by solar. I have spent 16 years learning a specific skill set in network marketing and I kept searching for a company that had the mission and the integrity so I could be completely congruent in all my actions. I had found some companies with noble missions and quality people, but I kept thinking, “If everyone buys this product, will it really improve the world?” It is easy to rationalize and think, “Yes, because people will be healthier, etc.” But with Citizenre, every person who ugrades their home to solar is the equivalent (on avg) of planting 400 trees or taking 24 cars off the road. That is significant.
It is rare to find an organization where every aspect is aligned with who you are. When I met David Gregg and he shared his vision, I walked out of that meeting and thought, “I will sweep the floors to be a part of this. I will do anything.”
When he offered me the position to manage the network marketing division, I felt like everything I had ever imagined was now my reality.
I understand that people are sceptical. I don’t understand how people can possible conclude we are a scam or that the senior staff will run off the Cayman’s “with all the money.” We collect NO money. The only time deposits will be given is after the plant is built and the customer signs off on the design from the solar engineer and we have their panels ready to install.
If we were taking deposits now, there would be significant reason for concern. We have a responsibility to our independent ecopreneurs who are investing their time and energy because they believe in our model. They would most definitely be “hurt” if our model failed. But we have made it as clear as possible to them that we are a young company. There are always risks. Some very smart people have spent years putting our infrastructure together. We know people will copy our model once they understand it and part of our competitive advantage is to keep certain information confidential. That is our right as a private company.
There are a lot of emotions around this issue. I hope we can all just deal with the facts. Please give us a little time to prove our model. The more you learn, the more impressed you will be and the more it will make sense.
Thanks,
Rob Styler
February 18, 2007 at 8:17 pm
[Editor's Note: The false promise of an economic and environmental solution doesn't cost any money but it still hurts the consumer and the remaining industry in the end. I also wonder if the promise of a solar system for yourself isn't part of the payment promise. Take a serious look at their "vision" - everyone one of those things is a near impossibility. Hitting a home run every time isn't likely. Maybe the scam is at the investment level.]
The main argument is that it is a pyramid scam, but how can this possibly be a pyramid scam if they are not asking for money until the plans are drawn to put the panels on your roof?
Citizenre uses tried and true Multi-level marketing. One must take and pass tests to climb up the ladder, and there is no requirement to pay more money to Citizenre. They don’t even ask for a social security number.
There are definite rules about advertising or you as an Ecopreneur could be fired.
I do not trust the super skeptics ramblings because they lie to everyone and don’t seem to want to profess the true Citizenre business model. I trust the mathematics of the business model. I expect Citizenre to take a loss for the first 10 years then they should hopefully have enough customers and revenue flow in place to start making a profit.
I see no other way of getting solar panels on substantial numbers of houses save except a major technology leap and enormous investment.
By the way did you know PV grade silcon is produced from sand? uC silicon (used in computer chips) is higher grade than PV silicon, and new models for solar panel production do not require clean rooms.
Citizenre truth is the one making this up.
February 18, 2007 at 10:41 pm
check out this blog about Citizenre. Some useful info, PLUS a powerpoint slide of the exact test Sales associates have to take. definitely worth a look.
http://logiq.wordpress.com/
February 21, 2007 at 1:15 pm
Wow… it’s ‘entertaining’ to have read ‘most’ of the articles here, I wouldn’t say ‘informative’ as much as a non-stop round of bickering between ‘rob’ and ’shep’ (reminds me of two old ladies …lol), and the rest of the comments from the peanut-gallery.
Relax folks, this is just an ‘idea’ that someone has to (potentially) make earth a little greener for us. Your ‘fears’ or ‘encouragements’ provide more about who you are and the way you see life in general. If this happens to be another ’scam’, then so be it , and let’s hope we’re knowledgeable enough to see the signs (do you spend most of your online time posting to other ’scams’ around the world ?). Then again, if this happens to be start of something big, then it’s about bloody time someone had the balls to do something about it and try and be part of the solution.
Remember and think about this, the ‘real’ problem is big corporation-funded government (that’s right, take it however way you want) or continue on living with your head buried in the sand. Technology has been held back too long, the sheep are starting to move…
Make a Difference, inform yourself.
February 21, 2007 at 6:49 pm
On the Citizenre website, items 16 and 17 under the terms and conditions for “ecopreneurs”, implies that “ecopreneurs” need to buy sales materials from Citizenre. Why are those materials not free to the contractors working for Citizenre? How much do they cost? Must they keep buying them as they are updated and things change? Isn’t it disingenuous for Styler to say they “collect no money” if they charge for these materials?
P.S. Just to be snide, someone who quotes Aristotle should know how to spell skeptical.
February 23, 2007 at 6:53 pm
There is no requirement to buy anything from us. In the future we may have a printer produce brochures in bulk so people can buy those directly from the printer and save money because of the bulk printing. Some people want to create business cards and we want to make sure that we maintain our image and that the cards are produced in an environmentally friendly manner.
We would never make a profit on those purchases. It would just be a service to help our reps save money and present a more professional image. I understand the most networking companies use “sales aids” as a profit center. That is completely against our corporate culture.
Most companies charge reps even to pay their checks. They deduct $1-$5 from every check for processing fees. We will be charged fees to load the funds, but we absorb all of those costs. Our philosophy is that if our model cannot stand on its own, then we should not be in business.
My apologies about spelling skeptical wrong. Sometimes my fingers type faster than my brain.
Rob
February 28, 2007 at 6:23 pm
What is the point of your criticizing of CitizenRe? It is just to show how smart you are? No one who is signing up for CitizenRe is paying a penny until the panels go up on the roofs and they produce electricity. Therefore there is no risk to anyone who signs up but there is the potential if they pull it off of converting a lot of people to solar who would not convert otherwise. You are quick to nitpick and criticize this idea but offer no solution of your own.
By the way CitizenRe does not sell anything to it’s associates. That is a downright lie and they do offer much advertising and sales support for free.
It costs NOTHING to sign up and it costs NOTHING to sell. How can this hurt? What are you doing to help?
February 28, 2007 at 8:57 pm
[Update 2/28/07: Technology Jargon]
I read this part of CitizenRE’s webpage today, which talks about their system components. It all sounds very official and technological, but frankly is full of it:
* “[W]e utilize an AC PV panel as opposed to a DC PV panel. In our system, direct current is inverted into alternate current immediately, as opposed to routing a series of panels to a central inverter.” They don’t have an AC solar panel. All solar panels are DC. They have a micro-inverter attached to their DC panel. Unfortunately, micro-inverters have a limited commercial history, i.e. they failed, and there are none available right now. The environment on a roof is harsh - wind, rain, heat, cold - and the industry found it made more sense to put the inverter in a safer location, such as inside or on the first floor, where it will last longer. CitizenRE knows this is an issue and I’ve seen it mentioned in their comments, but it adds to the laundry list of technological things to “figure out.”
* “The most important [benefit of the "AC panel" is] a lower component count. With a lower component count, the overall system is less intrusive and intuitively means that there is less likelihood of failure.” Frankly, I don’t know what a component count is or how an panel with a micro-inverter reduces any redundancy.
* “By utilizing AC PV, there is less line-loss – a phenomenon that occurs in DC wiring where electricity bleeds out of the line.” Electricity doesn’t bleed out of lines. It is lost as heat from using wires that are too small. DC solar systems run at 300+ volts to the inverter these days, which is higher than 120 or 240 volt AC current. The higher the voltage, the lower the amperage, the smaller the wire you can use, the cheaper the wiring costs. I don’t see this as being a real issue.
* “Having each panel invert there generated electricity also minimizes the potential of your entire system failing.” Given that micro-inverters are operating in much harsher conditions and have no proven track record than a central inverter, I would disagree. If you have a permanent flaw in the software or design, i.e. recall, you also now have to fix 10-500 inverters instead of 1-20. CitizenRE has an inherent interest in making the system work - they don’t get paid if it doesn’t.
* “Because each panel is independent, the entire system can be scaled-up or scaled-down depending on your usage.” Another bright idea with little merit. Scaling solar panels is possible with a centralized inverter - you just design it appropriately. You’re not going to be scaling up or down on a yearly basis or anything.
* “It should be mentioned that AC PV panels can generate electricity on a cloudy or overcast day, albeit with less efficiency.” Don’t believe it. Sure, a minor amount of electricity can be generated on a cloudy day, but it has nothing to do with “AC panels.” If anything, it has to do with the “thin-film” technology of the solar panel itself (not the inverter), and it is so minor, it’s not worth mentioning.
March 1, 2007 at 3:09 pm
I haven’t seen anything on this blog since 2/21/2007. I am not sure what that means. I do want to say that the information coming here and on other blogs from critics of CitizenRe is mostly distorted and in many cases just plain wrong. On the other hand I have yet to see any distortions and/or lies coming from the supporters of CitizenRe. Every time someone destroys a skeptics theory of how this is a scam the skeptics come back and make up a new theory of how it is a scam. Every time someone points out that this is good for the environment and the solar industry in general the skeptics (most notably the author of this blog) make up new reasons why it is bad. A realistic evaluation of the criticisms and defense of this company can only lead a thinking person to the conclusion that the critics are simply afraid of what the success of this company might do to their own personal pocketbooks. It looks to me like the solar elite (those with enough money and/or training in the industry) are threatened by the idea that the common man might actually be able to use solar power. Who is the real scammer here? Someone asked the pointed question, what do the skeptics have to offer those of us who are not members of the existing solar elites? Funny, nobody responded to that.
P.S. Mike you need to re-read the information that you misinterpreted and perhaps you will discover the truth that CitizenRe doesn’t even offer sales material for sale much less force anyone to buy it. Also, any idiot can use a spell checker. You should try and focus more on reading comprehension rather than mindlessly memorizing the correct spelling of words.
March 1, 2007 at 6:59 pm
I originally posted this comment on greenoptions.com but have edited it and reposted here. I hope readers appreciate that while I certainly control the peanut gallery, everyone has been welcome to comment (I certainly could have done otherwise):
Ultimately, I’m trying to have a coherent discussion on what CitizenRE claims they can accomplish. Most consumers don’t have any sense of what is and isn’t possible.
Are their goals realistic? Are their technologies sound? Does information make sense? I don’t see asking and trying to answer those questions as being anything other than sensible.
My problem isn’t with the solar leasing model - I love it and have stated so repeatedly. It’s already happening. I would love nothing more than for a whole new sector of the industry to sprout up and use it. And if CitizenRE is the one to do it and do it well, great.
My problem is with the methods and claims of CitizenRE that raise so many flags on so many fronts - technical, economic, policy, etc. Aim high but aim realistic.
If I told you I had a new car that got 200 miles per gallon, drives on a new unnamed renewable fuel, could hold 10 people, was made from 100% recyclable products, and was completely recyclable when you scrapped it, and I was going to build a factory and open 100,000 car dealerships, would you automatically believe me? No. Why should CitizenRE be held to any different standard?
The impact of their failure on the industry and on consumers would be felt for many years to come. And the industry is far from broken - something approaching 15,000 systems were installed in 2006.
My personal blog is certainly tinged with sarcasm at times, but I have yet to find satisfactory answers to basic questions. Rather than blaming me for being too negative (which I think is unfair but that’s your opinion), try responding to my critiques with credible information and successful action. That’s the surest way to shut me up.
Build a factory. Tell me where the factory will be built. Show me an inverter. Show me where the inverter factory will be. Sign a memorandum of agreement with an existing company. Announce that you have $650 million dollars and this is where the money is coming from. Tell me you got financing from this bank or these investors. Install a system. Show me something tangible - prove me wrong. Hope is not evidence.
March 2, 2007 at 2:18 pm
I posted this on renewableenergyaccess, but many of you have the same concerns here, so I will repost:
We know that some of you are concerned that Citizenre could hurt the existing solar industry as people wait for our solution. The concern seems to be that we are not being accurate in our marketing and we are “misleading” customers.
To make sure that there cannot possible be any confusion, we have posted this message on our site. When someone clicks to “reserve their system,” this is the first message they see:
Excellent! Citizenrē is very excited to see that you have taken the initiative to self register.
Before you continue on, we want to take a moment to explain to you that our unique solution is creating a lot of excitement around solar. We want to make very clear that our plant has not been built yet. There could be delays. The last thing we would want is for you to wait if you can “join the solution” now. Whether you get your system from us or from another solar professional, as soon as you install solar on your home you are making a difference.
Our solution will open up the market to many people who do not want or do not have the ability to pay the large upfront investment for solar power. If you have the financial wherewithal to buy a PV system today, we urge you to do it. Our environment and economy needs you to do this as soon as you can. Here is a link to find a certified installer closest to you http://www.findsolar.com.
If you prefer to wait for our solution, please fill out this form. One of our solar engineers will visit your home and design your personal system. Nevertheless, the solar engineer will not visit your home until they have your panels ready to install; for those registering early on, this will likely not occur until the beginning of 2008 and later for those that register later.
To help you identify a more accurate timeframe, we are developing a computer model that will inform you of a more precise date for your site survey. It will be based on when you reserved your system and your franchise region. As a last note of assurance, your security deposit will not be asked of you until the engineer has conducted the site visit and you have approved of the system design.
So with that said, registering is a very simple process. There are two short pages; and once you have finished filling out the information and submitting it, you are one step away from joining the solution.
I want to thank you for joining the solution and switching to solar. I will be in touch with you promptly to walk you through the last step. If you have any questions, you can contact me directly at
I hope this will take away any concerns. We are now actively directing customers to our fellow solar professionals. Whether people get solar from us or from someone else, the important thing is that they take action. We are opening up the solar market to many people who were never customers before. This is a good thing.
To verify this, you can go to http://www.jointhesolution.com/join and click on the “reserve” button.
Thanks,
Rob
March 2, 2007 at 2:24 pm
I don’t have any problem with skeptical. The problem I have is your unrealistic perception of the problems that would be caused if this company does fail as you believe it will.
First of all, if you want me to sign a paper that says that I want one of those cars but that I didn’t have to pay anything until I saw the car in my driveway. I might be skeptical but I am ready to sign-up just in case. After all, there is nothing to lose.
I agree that the solar industry might not be broken but it’s not doing much either. 15,000 systems sounds like something except that it amounts to almost nothing when you look at the percentage of energy produced by these systems compared to the total energy production in this country (less than 1/2 of 1%).
By the way, I am not employed by or a representative of CitizenRe. The company said they will announce where the factory is and disclose their investors shortly. Since they aren’t asking you for anything why are you so demanding?
In the mean time you haven’t even tried to explain how this could possibly be anything but positive for the cause of implementing renewable energy and helping our environment in general.
So far this company has already clearly demonstrated that there are thousands of Americans out there who want solar power but are being told by the existing solar industry that it is not available to them unless they win the lottery.
Even if this company does fail, the stirring of interest in solar power amongst thousands of Americans who had given up on the idea might spur some other company or person to think outside the box and take action to move this moribund industry forward.
What’s good for the goose is good for the gander. If you want CitizenRe to tell you all of this then you justify your ridicules catastrophic predictions or quit making them.
Hope is a whole lot more than most of us are getting from the existing solar industry.
March 6, 2007 at 10:17 pm
Curious,
With Rob Styler talking about posting bio on each officer, is he going to be included? Do a Google and see what you come up with, sounds like he was associated with one of the largest hyped up MLM scams ever brought down by FTC.
March 7, 2007 at 1:35 pm
Even curiouser….
His bio is posted and a google comes up with info on how he helped bring that company down. Is that what you were referring to?
March 8, 2007 at 12:25 pm
My bio is posted above and on our website http://www.citizenre.com. I was the one who shut Equinox down. Please do your research. I left, then wrote the book that inspired the investigation (Spellbound, My Journey through a tangled Web of Success), then I was the lead witness against the company in federal court.
I was young, naive, and just out of the Peace Corps. I learned many valuable lessons. I walked away from a lot of money and took a stand against a $200 million dollar company.
I will never claim that I have never made a mistake. But I do stand by my very public record of doing the right thing in a tough situation.
Thanks,
Rob
March 11, 2007 at 2:56 pm
[Editor's Note: Through a cached Google search, I did find the "before" webpage referenced below about Mr. Styler, which is now available here as a PDF (bottom of page 2). This comment was edited as [indicated] below for non-constructive comments.]
[sentence removed]
Rob, why did you have the section about you removed on
http://www.worldwidescam.info/xpatchpromises.htm
Did you threaten a law suit?
Rob, you have a history of ["issues"] dating back to Equinox and more recently, the X-patch.
[sentence removed]
March 11, 2007 at 3:03 pm
[Editor's Note: non-constructive comments edited as indicated below by brackets.]
Rob,
Enough about the Peace Corps. You dropped a dime on Equinox because you [3 words deleted] never made it into the inner circle. So, you dropped a dime, wrote a mea culpa and made a few bucks. Then, you went to work for Life force promoting the “X-Patch.” Do you really think the X-Patch reverses cell death? Is Dr. Schmitt a real doctor? You stated that 35 clinical trial centers were evaluating the X-Patch,[which were never confirmed.] [2 words deleted]
[2 sentences deleted]
[CitizenRE is] not targeting the consumer, they are desperately trying to raise money from private investors and then they will file for bankruptcy……Dr. Robert Wills has been through it once before with his MM5000 micro inverters [at Advanced Energy]. He left quite a few holding the bag on that one.
March 11, 2007 at 9:55 pm
Steve:
I am not quite sure what your “issue” is, but I am sure that you don’t have your facts straight. I was most definitely on the “inner circle” of Equinox. I was one of a handful of national trainers and reached their top position of International Marketing Director. It was my time in the inner circle that allowed me to see things I could no longer support.
I paid for the books out of my own pocket because I thought it was important to get the message out. I did not “make a few bucks.” In fact I was personally sued by Equinox for $2 million dollars because I took a stand and spoke my truth.
LifeWave has a new technology that has been written up in Sports Illustrated, ESPN, multiple news shows, etc. I am not an expert on nanotechnology, nor, would I guess, are you. But people a lot smart than me have staked their professional reputations on the effectiveness of that technology and it personally makes a difference in my life. I worked with LifeWave as an independent rep and I still believe in their technology.
Robert Burtis, the person who runs that site, has a level of respect for me that motivated him to remove that clip. I believe that my book is still the only one he recommends. If you know anything about Robert Burtis, a threat of a lawsuit would never motivate him to stop speaking what he believes to be true.
Robert and I disagreed about LifeWave. He does not believe in the technology. I do. When I because the president of the marketing divsion for Citizenre, I spoke with Robert and asked him ot remove all of the references to me connected with LifeWave. He agreed. I told him that someone was trying to use it to muddy the waters about Citizenre and he said, “I still don’t believe in LifeWave, but I like and respect you, Rob. You are one of the good guys.”
That is the beauty about our free country. People can have different opinions. The hope is that those opinions can be civil and not resort to smears and libel.
Thanks,
Rob
March 16, 2007 at 9:57 am
I should be a top executive of citizenre because I have nothing in my past connecting me to anything that would muddy up the image of citizenre……But I don’t know the first thing about marketing…..actually I am not much of a salesman either……my knowledge on solar power is very limited……I guess I wouldn’t be a very experienced candidate….I guess I will just keep selling world instruments on eBay….I make a good profit doing that and I am good at it….I did shill bid once though…..If I became a top executive of Citizenre do you think that may surface and look bad for me? Oh well I guess I will get back to answering my questions now…..ignore me.
March 17, 2007 at 7:17 am
David D,
No one expects anyone to be perfect. But here’s the deal with Citizenre.
There has been absolutely no disclosure with:
1. PV factory site location
2. The financial backers; Citizenre claimed $650,000,000 investment.
Also, just look at their business plan. They have a FRA that is a joke. Their salesforce is very poorly trained. In fact, the test that one had to pass to become an ecopreneur simply focused on how to get someone to sign a FRA. There was not one question about solar PV. Not one. Ecopreneurs were saying outlandish things and grossly misrepresenting the company. It’s kind of ironic as Citizenre is so concerned about public perception, yet they “hire” a sales force that does not represent the company well at all. Lastly, one has to look at the people who are running the comapany. In my opinion, they are not well suited for running a company that claims they will produce a 100 MW of PV in the near term.
So when you add everthing up…..lack of disclosure, a faulty sales “training” program, and corporate officers who lack a proven track record and have been involved in questionable business deals in the past, you get a “muddy image” of Citizenre.
What else would you expect.
Furthermore, if you were thinking of investing millions into a company, would you not look at all of these things?
Just a few thoughts and all of these are my opinions.
March 22, 2007 at 7:50 am
[Editor's Note: Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof...I think it's a standstill. Without more information, the conjecture has run itself dry. I personally don't buy the "we're negotiating" claim...When Vestas (a wind company) was looking to built a manufacturing plant, they were playing each state off of one another to get more tax breaks and concessions.]
I wonder why this Citizenre thread has been so quiet?
March 24, 2007 at 8:25 am
OK, so we are still waiting for the Citizenre press release that will detail who is backing the company to the tune of $650,000,000. Also, we are still waiting for the plant location.
My prediction: if Citizenre fails yet one more time to disclose, I believe it’s all over for this company that never got really started. Yep, they had a great website though!
Remember, Mr. Rob Styler said that the PR would happen in March. But also rememebr, he said it was supposed to happen in Januaryand February as well.
March 30, 2007 at 5:57 am
Spoke to Rob Styler live yesterday and now he says that the long anticipated press release that was supposed to happen in January, then February, and later postponed to March, will now happen sometine in April !!!!
You heard it folks, April is now the new time frame.
April 15, 2007 at 10:12 am
Rob,
It is April 15th. Absolutely nothing of substance has been reported relative to:
1. Citizenre’s supposed manufacturing site.
2. The financial backers of Citizenre.
I believe Citizenre is a spoof.
I believe you have misled many.
I believe you should be held culpable for this scam.
These are my opinions. I’ll let everyone else decide what they think Citizenre and you are all about.
SS
April 15, 2007 at 10:14 am
Rob,
It is April 15th. Absolutely nothing of substance has been reported relative to:
1. Citizenre’s supposed manufacturing site.
2. The financial backers of Citizenre.
This is kinda of AWKWARD is it not?
April 16, 2007 at 2:10 pm
Interview with Jigar Shah of SunEdison, who’s company utilizes the third-party leasing model for commercial customers…
Click here
April 17, 2007 at 9:50 am
[Editor's Note: I think praying for CitizenRE is taking it a bit far but maybe that's what they need now. Solar electricity is not going to address oil dependence. Electricity is not made from oil in any sizeable amount.]
I would like to see affordable solar become available to residential and small business for about same cost as we pay now for dirty energy. The opposition is great. Oil companies posted record profits very recently even as our costs peaked. Big business doesn’t like to be forced to change, especially if it means lower profits. They still have the mentality to try to beat last quarter’s profit to appease Wall Street, stockholders, and in order to pay CEO type salaries. Look at how many decades it took Utilities, Chemical Manufacturers, Automobile Manufacturers, and other industries to adopt even minimal pollution controls!
In addition - dependence upon foreign oil is a direct threat to our national security. Through oil dependencies we are forced to pay enormous amounts of money to countries who now hate the U.S. more than ever. In effect as we consume more power generated from oil we indirectly support our enemies. A good percentage of that money finds it’s way into the hands of terrorists and others who will use it directly against us, now or in the future. So the more we can reduce our foreign oil addiction the more we can reduce the funding that finds it’s way to America’s enemies.
It’s too bad the government can’t do something. But it seems that Big Business and Big Brother are inexoribly intertwined. Politics often prevents our leaders from doing the right things that need to be done in order to SAVE our downward spiraling country. So we - the people - need to take action if we can. I pray that CitizenRE, or something comparable, becomes a reality and SOON. I pray that Rob Styler and company can/do work out all these issues and make this dream become a reality. If they happen to make a lot of money in doing so, without cheating or scamming anyone along the way, and help SAVE our country - Hooray for Them! -
April 22, 2007 at 10:45 pm
I’m going to ask some question not asked above
How much will Sales Man make? “The guy who nocks on door”
How about the Man - who has to walk job and design it? Order parts / sch job / etc what his pay? For a specialist
How much does the installer Get (day’s? Work + truck, gas, food, LIC, taxes and permits- and don’t forget the nuts and bolts)
Plus Shipping Cost? Solar Pnl, s / special inverters boxes / batteries? (Wow hope they own a fleet of trucks too- or Have UPS on speed dial!
That’s just some questions, besides were Solar Factory? Maybe shop in china? Cause to make there roll out date? They would need a “red” army to produce them in time.
Also The electric co’s will put up every obstacle they can, also cities/counties will resist in part (tax loss?) besides – some other Big Silicon’s up start’s are coming there way!
Bottom Line, There Hoping to “go” Public IPO? Or looking for some huge Venture Cap, Firm and they? Founders walk away Supper Rich! Or stick around and run Co. And earn 6 plus fig in wages…….
On a scale of 1-10 maybe a 2
May 2, 2007 at 6:07 pm
Well, two weeks have passed and yet againm Rob Styler and Citizenre have failed to disclose:
1. Plant location.
2. Financial backers.
What a surprise.
May 14, 2007 at 3:43 pm
[Editor's Note: I'm not willing to throw in the hoax towel yet. Silence isn't evidence persay and it can rear it's head at any time.]
OK, I am going to say it: Citizenre must be a marketing hoax….a failure to launch, if you will. Rob Styler is the ring leader. Expect a class action suit.
These, of course, are just my opinions as I do not want Rob to threaten to sue for libel.
June 21, 2007 at 8:50 am
You got a point there. All we can do for the moment is look for a more obvious flaw for this one.
Perhaps they didn’t provide the proper training and guidance, that’s why they move it forward.
It is somewhat related to what I’m teaching.
http://www.mlmtraining.org
July 7, 2007 at 7:01 pm
[Editor's Note: Always beware of !!! exclamation points - they don't spell trouble but sure highlight it!!!]
Interesting,
Have you seen the latest in salt water igniting to 1500 degrees with a flick of switch? Watch the news video clip to be amazed, then investigate the Hydrogen Fusion Fuel Alternative for all ICE vehicles.
Soon conversions for our homes will be released. No longer will we need a roof full of solar panels which this company has promised forever, now only one PV panel will be required for total off grid home power generation with zero emissions.
http://NanoDetonator.com
Good luck to all,
July 31, 2007 at 7:37 pm
Financial institutions getting cold feet
2007-07-31 15:37:57 - MR. MIKE D. REILLY - Sr. Sales Manager - Member since: 2006-12-09
Personal Sales: 223 | Team Sales: 223 | Adjusted Team Sales: 223
I have held what information i was told by a person that signed a NDA for the period of time that i promised. Now I feel the need to share what i was told out of respect for all that are busting their rear ends for this company with little or no kept promises in return. I was told it is not the transportation study but the money institutions that are waivering. These statements from a person that should be in the loop and the status of the lending institutions regarding loans at this time make me lean to the side of my source. I am not trying to rock the boat or the pieces that everyone are holding onto. But i feel the ones holding this together should know what i was told and take it for what it is worth to them. I hope i am wrong.
Regards, Mike
August 11, 2007 at 7:55 am
Citizenre will never manufacture 1 solar pv panel. They will nevermanufacture 1 inverter. There will be no vertical integration. Citizenre is attempting to accumulate as many leads (yes leads as FRA’s are not contracts) and sell these leads to private solar integrators/installers. Look at the Ecopreneur contract. There is a provision for that and it is very nebulous as to what the Ecopreneur would get paid for completed sales. Rob Styler at best is a very easily misled person and has completely bought into this flawed, dishonest, pyramid plan. At worst, Rob Styler is a liar and complicit with this scam. Rob, you will be held accountable someday for this. Gregg was smart. He hired you to be the mouthpiece. It will be your words that make you liable. Gregg. You for all practical purposes are Citizenre.
August 14, 2007 at 3:34 pm
i talked with one of the executives of citizenre. my company offered solar thermal electric installations to begin as soon as they were ready at $3/watt installed (in 100 kW increments for neighborhoods where they had 10 houses signed up) and citizenre wouldn’t go for it. ? why wouldn’t they want to start meeting current customer demand, if not at least in markets where they’ve had decent success?
August 22, 2007 at 9:21 am
[Editor's Note: This is cross-posted from another CitizenRE post from "Dr. Richard".]
Yesterday, Citizenre released a press release announcing their “financing team” that will help them raise funding. Citizenre does not have any funding. You don’t make this announcement if you have already closed financing. If you have funding, this is not news.
My analysis from six months ago that Citizenre is a highly unethical attempt to prove that there is sufficient demand (e.g. FRAs) to justify financing remains valid. Unfortunately, Citizenre’s timing is lousy and they are extemely vulnerable because they tried to sell first and only after the succeeded in selling, finance and build long-lead time infrastructure (PV and inverter manufacturing plant; thousands of installations dependent on equipment made in the plant).
We are several weeks into the worst credit crunch since 1973 and possibly 1929/1930. Lending has largely stoped - particularly for sub-prime and alt-a mortgages, jumbo mortgages, asset-backed securities, junk bonds, commercial paper, M&A takeovers, and pretty much all lending below AA or AAA. Major banks and investment banks have several hundred billion worth of loans made in the last couple of months (mostly for M&A deals and asset securitization deals) that they are unable to sell to investors without taking major losses. Everyone is scared and pulling back right now. For the little bit of lending that is available, credit spreads have increased by several hundred basis points. This means that if you were expecting a 5% interest rate in July, you may be paying 7% or 7.5% in August if you can still get the loan. Any assumptions about financing that are more than two weeks old have to be revisited. A month ago, GE Money was willing to finance PV systems for single family homes at rates between 7.5% and 14+%, but wanted 5 to 7 year terms. However, even then, they were more interested in commercial PV loans than residential loans. GE is still trying to value the collateral value of home PV systems - there are a lot of technical challenges and costs associated with removing PV systems and a used system may only have value for the first five years.
For Citizenre, they have the assumption that they can essentially give low interest, no documentation, 25 year loans to their customers (a lender’s view of the FRA cashflows). This is essentially a sub-prime, unsecured loan, and any asset-backed security based on a pool of these FRAs would be extremely hard to value right now. The default rate on FRA’s is unknown. Likewise, the cancellation rate and the effective duration of the FRA stream (e.g. how long the average customer has the system on their roof given the easy cancellation terms) are also unknown. Right now, investors do not trust the investment bank valuations of asset-backed securities because 1) there is really no liquid market for these, 2) everything is marked-to-model (where the model is an investment bank spreadsheet) based on investment bank assumptions that may be questionable and overly optimistic, 3) there are major conflicts of interest by the rating agencies and investment banks, and 4) there has been way too much fraud in this space (as much as 50% of all sub-prime loans may have been tainted by frauds committed by one or more of the parties involved - the borrower, the broker, the originator, the rating agency, the investment bank, the appraiser).
If you change the assumptions, Citizenre’s model will break down. There are four major vulnerabilities to Citizenre in this credit crunch:
a) Customer Credit Worthiness Risk: Since no customers have completed credit checks, we don’t know what percentage of them have prime credit. A significant portion of the 19,700+ customers may not have acceptable credit scores and their FRAs may not be financeable.
b) Interest Rate Risk: If Citizenre has to pay higher interest rates, their margins will decrease, making the service uneconomic for them to offer in some locations. This means that they either a) have to raise the rates they charge (which could make the KWH cost of electricity higher for their customers than they pay their utilities) and/or b) have to exit certain markets - particularly those with low interest rates. Again, a large percentage of customers could be lost if entire states have to be abandoned or if Citizenre is forced to change the rates promised.
c) Geographic Risk: Lenders may avoid investing in asset-backed security loans from certain regions that are particularly hard hit by real estate mortgage foreclosures. 50% of the sub-prime mortgages in the past three years were issued in California and Florida. Unfortunately, California is the most attractive solar market in the country (~80% of the US solar market).
d) Contract Language Risk: Lenders may object to certain terms in the FRA contract and require changes. The financing term has the greatest impact on the economics of FRAs. If lenders require shorter terms (e.g. 5 to 7 years, instead of 25 years), Citizenre cannot offer FRAs at their current rates.
Even if we assume that this deal was fundable in the second quarter of this year, today it is toxic and unfundable given the credit crunch. When one adds the other risks in the deal (execution, inexperienced management team, technology risks, manufacturing risks, MLM marketing scheme), it becomes even less likely to get funded.
October 20, 2007 at 3:04 pm
Scam…. Look up Equinox MLM scam and you will find Rob Styler
November 25, 2007 at 11:39 am
It has now been a year since I first learned about Citizenre. Today, one year later, we know nothing more of real substance about Citizenre than we did a year ago other than the fact that they have consistently failed to deliver on promises and statements made in the past year. My August comments on another blog that SolarKismet reposted here remain valid and unanswered by Citizenre. If anything, the financial environment is even worse (problems have already spread to commercial paper markets, SIVs, commercial real estate, etc.) and is increasingly looking like 1929-1933.
November 27, 2007 at 3:01 am
You’ve got to admit the concept that Citizenre is advocating “sounds amazing”, but it doesn’t look like it’s ever really going to get off the ground.
Although it’s difficult to argue with most of what has been said here it’s important to point out that not all MLM’s are scams. The “MLM Marketing scheme” as stated in a previous comment should not be seen as an indictment of all MLM companies.
Although I will not pass judgement on Citizenre and whether or not is it a scam it doesn’t look like it passes the too good to be true litmus test.
One thing you have to admit is that there is a need for cost effective solar power and if they could actually do what they say they are going to do it would be an incredible opportunity.
My biggest concern is that once again a company making bold statements is using an MLM pay plan and that all companies will be painted with the “MLM is always a scam” brush.
For what it’s worth, just because it’s MLM doesn’t make it a scam. Although the industry is fraught with scammers this is another stereotype that doesn’t fit everybody.
Scott Miller
http://www.formermlmloser.com
July 7, 2008 at 5:32 pm
O.K. I’ve read most of theese posts and the citizenre website. Is it a scam? I think yes and no. For the people signing up who would never put in a solar panel themselves or never look into the insentives themselves, it is a no loose situation. To those who would do a little research into insentives in thier state and are able to benefit from them stand to loose something. If it does ever take off they could pocket a lot in fed. state and utitlity company incentives, but the customer that would never take advantage of those insentives has lost nothing. Tennesse Valley athourity in Tennesse and North Mississippi is paying customers .15 residential-.20 commercial per kwh they produce with photvoltaics that are net metered. They (TVA)keep the Federal Tax credits. To check your state insentives see http://www.dsireusa.org